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Old 01-11-2019, 02:51 PM   #1
Il Cattivo
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Default A New Ukranian Source Of 5.45?

They're concentrating on pistol ammo for local demand for now, but they're planning on expanding into 5.45x39. Here's hoping we get the chance to help finance all their new equipment.

From today's edition of The Firearm Blog -

Ukrainian FORT Launches New Handgun Ammunition Manufacturing Line
by Hrachya H

"The Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs has published a news release telling of the visit of Arsen Avakov, head of the ministry, to FORT Company where a new handgun line of ammunition was launched. According to Mr. Avakov, this new production line will allow to completely fulfill the demand of the Ukranian Border Guard, National Guard, Police and other law enforcement agencies.

The project was a joint effort of several Ukrainian ministries. It required an investment of 69 million Ukrainian hryvnias, which is roughly equivalent to $2,520,000. The manufacturing equipment and machinery was purchased from the USA, Poland, Turkey and the Czech Republic. As mentioned in the press release, large-scale manufacturing of small arms ammunition was earlier done in Lugansk Ammunition Plant, which is no more controlled by the Ukrainian government due to conflict in the region.

The new manufacturing line makes only 9x19 Luger and 9x18 Makarov cartridges. With a two-shift operation, this small plant is capable of producing 14.5 million of the two mentioned cartridges per year. However, as the minister noted, they are planning to expand the capabilities and later start manufacturing 5.45x39mm and 14.5x114 carteidges, too.

Mr. Avakov also mentioned that in the foreseeable future they may start exporting the ammunition."

Complete text of the original article at http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...g-capabilities

Last edited by Il Cattivo; 01-11-2019 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:00 PM   #2
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Impossible.

The world is on the verge of running out of 5.45 and the free market doesn't work, and Russia is going to be banned any minute now, or so says the Eyor contingent of the 'files.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Cattivo View Post
They're concentrating on pistol ammo for local demand for now, but they're planning on expanding into 5.45x39. Here's hoping we get the chance to help finance all their new equipment.

From today's edition of The Firearm Blog -

Ukrainian FORT Launches New Handgun Ammunition Manufacturing Line
by Hrachya H

"The Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs has published a news release telling of the visit of Arsen Avakov, head of the ministry, to FORT Company where a new handgun line of ammunition was launched. According to Mr. Avakov, this new production line will allow to completely fulfill the demand of the Ukranian Border Guard, National Guard, Police and other law enforcement agencies.

The project was a joint effort of several Ukrainian ministries. It required an investment of 69 million Ukrainian hryvnias, which is roughly equivalent to $2,520,000. The manufacturing equipment and machinery was purchased from the USA, Poland, Turkey and the Czech Republic. As mentioned in the press release, large-scale manufacturing of small arms ammunition was earlier done in Lugansk Ammunition Plant, which is no more controlled by the Ukrainian government due to conflict in the region.

The new manufacturing line makes only 9x19 Luger and 9x18 Makarov cartridges. With a two-shift operation, this small plant is capable of producing 14.5 million of the two mentioned cartridges per year. However, as the minister noted, they are planning to expand the capabilities and later start manufacturing 5.45x39mm and 14.5x114 carteidges, too.

Mr. Avakov also mentioned that in the foreseeable future they may start exporting the ammunition."

Complete text of the original article at http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...g-capabilities
Win win. Another source of ammo for us, and a big fuck you to the Russian government.
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:22 PM   #4
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Cue Putin's rent boys dropping by and cackling about how the plant's gonna get blown up or burned down or something aaaaany minute now!
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Old 01-11-2019, 03:28 PM   #5
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The idea of a new source of 5.45 is a welcome thaw to an increasingly chilly heart, but they need to fill their ammo dumps first. I have no idea how much Russia, Ukraine or any of the Former USSR know about the Us interest in their arms but I do know that we are a distant thought to making ammo when Russia can't keep their bullshit on their side of the border.
That aside, I'm curious as well.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:55 PM   #6
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It's great to see some potential good news on the 5.45 front. Hopefully it pans out and we will actually have another decent source for 5.45.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:25 PM   #7
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Okay I’m in for a crate
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:38 PM   #8
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Good! Hope it's not too long before they start to make and ship the 5.45x39 here.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:43 PM   #9
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Default ammo importation

Back in the day when Dans Ammo was still selling 7N6. I asked about him getting more from Ukraine or Russia. This was at the time of the beginning of the Ukraine war. He said even if Obama and Putin were shaking hands on the White House lawn tomorrow: (5-6 yrs ago)

1 He said Ukraine infrastructure(road/bridges/transportation) was so messed up he doubted it would get to the ports in Germany.
2 He implied there was pressure from the Upper German government (Merkel) not to process the shipments quickly. $$
3 Same thing on this side of the pond. (Obama)

Also manufacturing ammo and importing the ammo to the US is two different things.

On a good note. Exporting to get currency would be a huge priority for them.

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Old 01-11-2019, 06:51 PM   #10
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I hope the 5.45 is the old Red Army 69 grain bullet type, that was butt kickin ammo

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Old 01-11-2019, 06:52 PM   #11
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Intersting stuff AK-ula.
Ukraine might be able to supply new bullet types as well( or maybe I am just blowing smoke) but would they want to supply the US markets long term? as I mentioned before; I have no idea what the Ukrainians think of the US shooting community.
Do they know that the Gov and the people are not the same thing?
Would/could they make enough to keep costs low? Can they do just as good of a job, or better than, Vymple or Barnaul plants?
I don't know.. it does no good to be unrealistic about such things. The fact remains though, I dearly want the Ukrainians to succeed. Today and in the future.
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:35 AM   #12
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Are those Ladies in the pics packing ammo from those three Dillon presses behind them?

If so, the “volume” of this outfit needs to go way up before they are more than just a “cop shop”!
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:46 AM   #13
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Well, they gotta come up with test lots somehow!
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:03 AM   #14
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They should import the 14.5mm too... We don't have enough 14.5s here!
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:03 AM   #15
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Just comebck from Ukraine and saw border patrol walking around airport with AK74 with triangle stocks, not sure it is AKS74 or 74M. So, why not? They need ammo and tons of AKs are still in stock. It will take a lot of time untill they will change to Nato rifles.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:26 AM   #16
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Don't hold your breath waiting for ammo that might someday be made by a no brand eastern European company.

The Ukraine does have huge stockpiles of ex Soviet arms and ammunition of all types and has pretty much already sold off to the USA everything that could be imported to the USA as surplus.
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Old 01-12-2019, 01:33 PM   #17
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No one's holding their breath, but they've gotta pay for the machinery somehow and everyone knows Americans are rich.
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:41 PM   #18
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In for more, would love some brass rounds
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:49 PM   #19
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In for more, would love some brass rounds
That and some proper Pointed Soft Points (not resized 5.56 bullets, the 5.45 needs a longer bullet to feed properly) would be fantastic, as well as some more 69 grain FMJ's loaded like they did.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:14 PM   #20
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Hope they can crank out more than 14 million rounds a year. The US market would gobble that much 9mm up in one shipment.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:34 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Cattivo View Post
No one's holding their breath, but they've gotta pay for the machinery somehow and everyone knows Americans are rich.
Can they beat PPU and S&Bs today’s LOW prices? Pretty sure those two guys ain’t a bit nervous.
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Old 01-13-2019, 02:46 AM   #22
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For 9x19 and 9mm Mak, yes, but for 5.45x39?
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Old 01-13-2019, 09:40 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigiloso View Post
Win win. Another source of ammo for us, and a big fuck you to the Russian government.
first, they can't make at capacity that Russians can make it. It probably will be more expensive. I would still buy Russian 5.45. I am not hater like you
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Old 01-13-2019, 02:29 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Cattivo View Post
For 9x19 and 9mm Mak, yes, but for 5.45x39?
Well Prvi once made brass 5.45 and now?..... “pass”

Starline makes plenty of oddball brass but 5.45x39?...”pass”

Norma was the first to bring us boxer 7.62x39 but 5.45?...”pass”

Seems like no one thinks the market makes it worthwhile. If their govt will subsidize the costs...maybe it will happen.
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Old 01-13-2019, 03:02 PM   #25
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I'm just speculating like any other idiot on the internutz, but I see it the other way around.

The Ukrainians still have 5.45 rifles in inventory that they have to feed. To be sure of feeding them, the Ukrainians seem to be thinking that some domestic production capacity would be helpful. To develop that capacity, they have to buy machinery, train workers and so on. If their production capacity is high enough (yes, yet another "if"), then one way to recoup their costs is to sell 5.45 ammunition abroad for hard currency (also another thing Ukraine could use).

My WAG is that despite the relatively limited market for 5.45 here, we're still one of the biggest, richest markets that can help the Ukrainians recoup their costs by paying in hard currency - and the odds of sanctions blocking Ukrainian sales into the U.S. are anywhere from zero to nonexistent.
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Old 01-13-2019, 03:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Cattivo View Post
I'm just speculating like any other idiot on the internutz, but I see it the other way around.

The Ukrainians still have 5.45 rifles in inventory that they have to feed. To be sure of feeding them, the Ukrainians seem to be thinking that some domestic production capacity would be helpful. To develop that capacity, they have to buy machinery, train workers and so on. If their production capacity is high enough (yes, yet another "if"), then one way to recoup their costs is to sell 5.45 ammunition abroad for hard currency (also another thing Ukraine could use).

My WAG is that despite the relatively limited market for 5.45 here, we're still one of the biggest, richest markets that can help the Ukrainians recoup their costs by paying in hard currency - and the odds of sanctions blocking Ukrainian sales into the U.S. are anywhere from zero to nonexistent.
That's about how I see it too.

It's not about anything but money. Works for me.
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:18 PM   #27
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Yeah but I need a 5.45 rifle and some decent mags to shoot it...where those at?
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Old 01-13-2019, 06:53 PM   #28
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That's about how I see it too.

It's not about anything but money. Works for me.
How much money can there be if no one else has shown the slightest interest?
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:47 PM   #29
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There seems to be enough for the Russians to keep shipping it.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:27 AM   #30
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How much money can there be if no one else has shown the slightest interest?
There was a huge shipment that was approved and pretty much on the ship when the ban went in to effect. Basically no one else but the Russians make it right now. With the ban on 7n6 commercial production viability increased dramatically but also with the ban on 7n6 demand has dropped a bit because people are walking away from the caliber. This will be a chicken vs egg thing in the end. Someone will jump in at the right time when supplies get low enough here in the US and a company realizes there is a market to sell it at 5.56 prices.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:56 AM   #31
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There seems to be enough for the Russians to keep shipping it.
Reason enough for one NOT to try and start from scratch and make money producing 5.45x39. Economies of scale: The Russians are making Billions of rounds per year in state subsidized facilities. Will a start up have a cartridge that can compete? At the Russian 21cents/rd.

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Old 01-14-2019, 02:23 PM   #32
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That's the point. The Ukrainians wouldn't be doing it for profit, they'd be doing it to ensure their own supply - since Russia certainly isn't going to be shipping them 5.45 ammo any time soon (if ever).

One way to Ukraine can pay what it will cost Ukraine to build the manufacturing capability to supply themselves with 5.45 ammo is to sell any of their excess production to us for hard currency.

There's been an awful lot of hand wringing here about what might happen if Russia sanctions cut off the supply of Russian 5.45x39. If the Ukrainians are manufacturing 5.45x39, then Ukraine becomes an alternative source of supply for the U.S. market - which means that we can get 5.45 ammo regardless of what happens in terms of sanctions on Russia and regardless of whether or not anyone else decides to produce 5.45 ammunition for profit.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:44 PM   #33
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Just like with their license produced Tavor (Fort) in 5.45 - keep dreaming
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:07 PM   #34
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Keep in mind that the ammo factories in Ukraine that could produce 5.45 ammo were blown up during the Ukraine/Russian conflict.

It ain't gonna be cheap to start from scratch. And even if they did start producing 5.45, I'd be surprised if they could even produce a 10th of what their military required.

Pipe dream? Maybe. Sure would be nice to have alternatives to Russian supplied 5.45 though!
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Il Cattivo View Post
I'm just speculating like any other idiot on the internutz, but I see it the other way around.

The Ukrainians still have 5.45 rifles in inventory that they have to feed. To be sure of feeding them, the Ukrainians seem to be thinking that some domestic production capacity would be helpful. To develop that capacity, they have to buy machinery, train workers and so on. If their production capacity is high enough (yes, yet another "if"), then one way to recoup their costs is to sell 5.45 ammunition abroad for hard currency (also another thing Ukraine could use).

My WAG is that despite the relatively limited market for 5.45 here, we're still one of the biggest, richest markets that can help the Ukrainians recoup their costs by paying in hard currency - and the odds of sanctions blocking Ukrainian sales into the U.S. are anywhere from zero to nonexistent.
Just my opinion but they will either need western investors or it will be years before they can get their own tooling and production up to even export at all. I do dig the big Dillon presses, I have one

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