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Old 04-01-2018, 09:55 PM   #36
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I get some of what the OP is eluding to, about the AK "use to be" the entry level costing rifle for the starter.

It's no longer in that bracket of contention anymore, and it's market has been twisted by the Russian sanctions banning
the inexpensive Russians from import. Back then SAIGA's were $300 or whatever and as of 2016 even SAIGA rear converts
were still $450-$550. This kept the market lower, except Arsenal did their own price fixing to keep prices higher for years.

AR's were $1000 so starting out many intro rifle buyers went to the AK , not because it was the greatest, but because it was
inexpensive and a good field battle proven rifle, with less accuracy but bigger bullets. Surplus everywhere.....

The market we are in today ......has changed and, the Vendors & Importers have jackholed the AK prices to panic level, and refuse
to lower them. They've been using the SYRIA skirmish as the excuse to keep prices higher, and well Trump just declared we're outta
there soon, so not sure what excuse the Vendors will concoct now to keep prices elevated. My assumption is they figure the market
has been "conditioned" by then to pay the higher prices so........it will remain high.

Is what it is.......so the AR is now getting far more attention by many due to it's 180 degree turn on pricing being where AK's used
to be Today, the BETTER market is absolutely the AR15 & AR-308's. Whether you like it or not, it's just a fact of economics. You can
get a 308 AR which will outshoot any AK anyday of the week for the same price as a WASR in today's market. That's unheard of and
unprecedented.

AK is still my goto rifle for a serious situation for engagements under 200 yards. Pistols also, I still prefer the AK
However, for home defense being that I live in a populated suburb, I have to opt for 223/5.56 for home defense purposes

I have a very good collection of both AK & AR though.
I like both for what they are. Buy low, sell high..........right now, low is the AR scene.

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Fuck you Rick Roll
LMAO.....
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Old 04-01-2018, 09:56 PM   #37
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Not sure if April fools, or just fools.
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Old 04-01-2018, 09:56 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ddnc View Post
I like all guns.
I hate anything and all that attempts to limit my access to one. They are the enemy.
Train and be proficient with one. One day you may have to use it.
+1

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Old 04-01-2018, 09:57 PM   #39
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AK's are becoming exotics in a sense. I'm cool with that to a certain degree. While I'd like them to be widespread, they are also finally being recognized as quality rifles and collectibles. That's part of why I bought one and can pretty much ID the nation of origin on just about any AK in the world. I also enjoy the tactile sensation of firing one. The nice thump of the bolt carrier smacking shut on every round can't be beat.

Nothing wrong with the AR, other than the putitos who dickride the damn thing.
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Old 04-01-2018, 09:58 PM   #40
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Not sure if April fools, or just fools.
All fools on April 1st are April Fools, even just fools...
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:00 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by El Trollo Mejor View Post
AK's are becoming exotics in a sense. I'm cool with that. That's why I bought one and can pretty much ID the nation of origin on just about any AK in the world. I also enjoy the tactile sensation of firing one. The nice thump of the bolt carrier smacking shut on every round can't be beat.

Nothing wrong with the AR, other than the putitos who dickride the damn thing.
Exactly. I have a new SLR-95 that I got at a decent price recently. It's solid and badass. But I can't tell you where you can go find one today making it somewhat "exotic".
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:01 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by AK-104 View Post
I'm not saying that the weapon itself isnt capable. I'm saying that logistically it has become a poor choice in the US based upon price, lack of quality options, and availability of accessories which add to its utility. For those just starting out, the AK is not the obvious choice that it once was.
IMHO, the AKM doesn't need any "quality options" or "accessories" because it is perfect the way it is from inception. Same as a FAL or a Garand.

Some guns are classics; many are not.


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Old 04-01-2018, 10:06 PM   #43
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I vote for the removal of the AR sub forum.
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:22 PM   #44
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I'd say both are inadequate in comparison to the sling shot from a logistical standpoint.
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by GuzziMike View Post
IMHO, the AKM doesn't need any "quality options" or "accessories" because it is perfect the way it is from inception.


-
So... You're of the belief that the current crop of RAS47's, and Century hack jobs are perfect? That's what I'm getting at here. (Quality options). For the most part, quality AK's in the US are found on the used market with few exceptions, and they have become prohibitively expensive (like all collectibles tend to do).

If you were looking to buy your first rifle, and had to pick from the options available TODAY, at TODAY's prices, you'd be far better off to grab an AR.

I'm not saying that your (or my) AK's aren't good rifles. I'm simply saying that most of us here are lucky to have what we do because the market for the Kalashnikov in the US has really gone to hell, and as such... I see the AR as the better option TODAY.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:00 AM   #46
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I know I’m probably going to get in trouble for this.

I fucking love the AK. I would hand a quality one to anyone I cared about to protect their life.

My “Oh fuck!” or “Oh fuck you!” rifle is a Spike’s 16” mid length.

Be proficient and familiar with as many as you possibly can.

Excuse me please, because I’m finding cover.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:05 AM   #47
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Objectively today in the USA, on the civilian market now; in what ways is the AK superior to the AR?
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:33 AM   #48
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Had an M203 for 2 years in Alaska , mid seventies. Went with AK's in the 80's, Polytechs, Folder, Straight stock, and a .223 folder, and a Kassnar milled Hungarian. .10 cents/round for copper washed Chinese 800 round crates. Rifles came with 3 magazines, steel, new, and a sling, oil bottle and cleaning kit. Bayonet, also. For about 300.00 bucks delivered . Built an ar15, rebarelled a Springfield 1903, fixed some of the broken surplus rifles, and isreali .308 Mauser, with a winter trigger, a 8mm mauser Hakim autoloader, God it was BIG, Some German mausers, A Lee enfield. Liked em all, still keep going to the AK. Familiar, fits me, I like wood over plastic, mags and ammo are available everywhere, AK has a good drum system, it is simpler to maintain and clean. The mags for the AR are better these days, that was my main gripe , the magazines were kinda bare minimum, and kinda prone to feed lip damage. Most widely produced Rifle worldwide.
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:34 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by MIG*7.62 View Post
What "accessories" ??

An red dot optic, and mayyybe a light is all that's needed. Both easily added to ak
Heck, I could even add these accessories with some duct tape.
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:43 AM   #50
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Objectively today in the USA, on the civilian market now; in what ways is the AK superior to the AR?
Not really a whole lot, and thats coming from somebody who got his first rifle, a mak-90, when he was 12 and has been shooting/collecting since then.

Im seeing the Ak become a harder rifle to get into for a newbie looking for serious HD/Liberty rifle, with the lack of quality rifles and mags being a big hindrance.

I always tell people to grab a quality AR 15 first, then a AK (in 7.62x39mm), and stock plenty of mags for both, along with ammo, and ALWAYS buy Combloc mags for the AK if they are available for non ass raping prices.
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:37 AM   #51
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Objectively today in the USA, on the civilian market now; in what ways is the AK superior to the AR?

Being objective, I would say that the AK holds an advantage in two areas, and that is only when looking at both weapons in their classic configurations. Advantage one would be that there is just something special about an AK. The heft of it, the overall appearance of it, the simplicity of its design. These things can only be found in an AK. The second advantage would be that in their classic configurations, the thump of the 7.62x39 is more confidence inspiring than the 5.56x45 although modern ballistic studies have shown that unless firing through brush, or other barriers, that may not be an advantage.

Looking at what is actually available on the current civilian market today, the AK really doesn't have an advantage. A quality built example is now priced well above a comparable quality AR.

Also, the AR is truly a do it all rifle. The end user can use easily sourced parts to configure an SBR, a carbine, a standard rifle, a competition worthy rifle, a hunting rig, and anything in between, all on a single lower receiver. Want a .22lr for plinking? Done. Want a 7.62x39? Done. 9mm, 6.5, .300 blackout? Done, done, and done. Want a piston upper? Simple. Folding stock? Done. Free floated handguard? Done.

I like my AK because it is an AK in the same way that a guy might like his vintage Camaro because it is a classic. It can't hold a candle to the newest offerings, but it is still cool. Yes, an AK could still be used effectively for its intended purpose. No, the AR isn't a new design. Still, the AK has remained stagnant while the AR has evolved, and objectively I'd say that the AK has been left in the dust.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:01 AM   #52
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From new guy coming into AK world perspective, today is a bad day to take a plunge into the hobby.
74 factory guns were virtually wiped out from the US market.

My goal was always to spread AK love to the masses. Since sanctions, self imposed import limitations and all the hoopla, it is harder and harder to achieve this goal. I'm literally struggling with recommendations for new buyers since most questions are "Could you recommend GOOD AK for under $700?"...
I fkn can't. Not because i'm asshole, but because such a thing doesn't exist.
I mainly offer them to roll a dice on WASR10, which is the best bet in this scenario (in my eyes, your opinion may very), but now even WASR10 is reaching $750-800 levels...

If this trend will continue on AK market, AK in USA will fade away. I have no doubt about. We need new and fresh blood in this hobby and because of where AK market is today, there is nothing attractive for new guys in it...
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:11 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Aceshigh View Post
I get some of what the OP is eluding to, about the AK "use to be" the entry level costing rifle for the starter.


AK is still my goto rifle for a serious situation for engagements under 200 yards. Pistols also, I still prefer the AK
However, for home defense being that I live in a populated suburb, I have to opt for 223/5.56 for home defense purposes




LMAO.....
I concur, I keep 5.56 for home defense mostly. It used to be 5.45...

If I had to defend my Liberty and freedom, I would grab a WASR with a chest rig, but I've had this stuff for years.

When most of us bought our first AKs, we spent anywhere from $2-300 bucks.

When I bought my first AK-74, it cost me $599...

WASRs are good rifles, PAPs are OK, What the crap is up with Arsenal these days? I have hope for WBP and FB/Atlantic teaming up.

I keep wanting to buy a Polish rifle, but Palmetto State keeps running these dang low priced ARs...

The AR world is still a buyers market. When prices are low, it is time to buy. You can get a WASR for $700, true. But for just a bit more you can build two Palmetto State Freedom Mid-lengths with nitrided CMV barrels on stripped Andersons.

5.56 is no longer the unaffordable $400 per 1000

Good mags can be had for $10 each

Even the M7 Bayonet is getting el cheapo.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by AK-104 View Post
Being objective, I would say that the AK holds an advantage in two areas, and that is only when looking at both weapons in their classic configurations. Advantage one would be that there is just something special about an AK. The heft of it, the overall appearance of it, the simplicity of its design. These things can only be found in an AK. The second advantage would be that in their classic configurations, the thump of the 7.62x39 is more confidence inspiring than the 5.56x45 although modern ballistic studies have shown that unless firing through brush, or other barriers, that may not be an advantage.

Looking at what is actually available on the current civilian market today, the AK really doesn't have an advantage. A quality built example is now priced well above a comparable quality AR.

Also, the AR is truly a do it all rifle. The end user can use easily sourced parts to configure an SBR, a carbine, a standard rifle, a competition worthy rifle, a hunting rig, and anything in between, all on a single lower receiver. Want a .22lr for plinking? Done. Want a 7.62x39? Done. 9mm, 6.5, .300 blackout? Done, done, and done. Want a piston upper? Simple. Folding stock? Done. Free floated handguard? Done.

I like my AK because it is an AK in the same way that a guy might like his vintage Camaro because it is a classic. It can't hold a candle to the newest offerings, but it is still cool. Yes, an AK could still be used effectively for its intended purpose. No, the AR isn't a new design. Still, the AK has remained stagnant while the AR has evolved, and objectively I'd say that the AK has been left in the dust.
The 7.62x39 is certainly a better brush cartridge. Ballistics under 200 yards are very similar to the .30-30.

The AR we have today is lightyears ahead of what we had 20 years ago. Much of it has to do with M4 feed ramps and materials used in building the rifle. Impingement ARs will always run dirtier than a Kalashnikov, and the more complex design will always experience more failures than the long-stroke stamped sheet metal and plywood wonder.

But here in the states, the logistics, ammunition supply, etc. are greatly swinging in the ARs favor. Amazingly this wasn't always the case as we all know.

But I don't believe the AK is dead in the States, nor will it be for a very long time. In fact, one or two solid companies, or a couple solid imports could completely change the game overnight.

Where there is demand, there is an opportunity. One just needs the chutzpah to go after it.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:45 AM   #55
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Both firearms., AR and the AK are quite popular. This thread will ultimately turn into an AK vs AR dung slinging fight.
Both are very capable firearms.

AR prices have dropped significantly and AK prices have risen (25%-40%) in both directions.

Traffic on most firearm websites has dropped.

AK building is a much more tool heavy and costly endeavor and significantly fewer home builders are still around. Kit prices and the barrel ban created high impact on cost factors and more technical assembly steps.
Building a "shooter AK" is at a price point that is quite high and then the more uncommon DDR or Russian kits alone are $500 and up for starters.

Imported factory built AK's are in the $600 cost range.

There are certain AK variants and the more sophisticated builds of kits., to create more exacting clones., these have increased the authenticity and cost of certain models., "old school" type East German, milled variations of Polish or Bulgarian or Zastava, Russian etc.
Also today since the Russians and other countries have added modern components to the AK in the past 25 years the "new school" vs "old school" configurations of optics, rails, polymer etc., can raise cost significantly.

Chinese pre & post bans are priced quite high.

No more $250-$300 AK's around to build or buy.

Ammo prices are not really a big factor except in the larger calibers., 54r, .308, 8mm etc.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:00 AM   #56
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A folding stock on an AR-15 is not a folding stock, if you have a folding stock you should be able to fire the gun while it’s folded. How important is this? Probably not that important but I like the versatility. Fire your AR-15 with the stock folded and you risk eating a bolt carrier.

That’s my bitch about the AR, that and the god forsaken charging handle.

Time to go shoot the VZ-58
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:05 AM   #57
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A folding stock on an AR-15 is not a folding stock, if you have a folding stock you should be able to fire the gun while its folded. How important is this? Probably not that important but I like the versatility. Fire your AR-15 with the stock folded and you risk eating a bolt carrier.

Thats my bitch about the AR, that and the god forsaken charging handle.

Time to go shoot the VZ-58
Piston upper. Problem solved. Side charging upper. Another problem solved. There isnt anything an AK can do that an AR cant other than be an AK.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:06 AM   #58
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Piston upper. Problem solved. Side charging upper. Another problem solved. There isnt anything an AK can do that an AR cant other than be an AK.
Are we talking about the AR-15, or the FN FNC?
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:09 AM   #59
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Are we talking about the AR-15, or the FN FNC?
Versatility. Most of the most modern "new" designs are AR variants. The point being that all of these options are readily available for an AR. With the Kalashnikov, you get what you get.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
From new guy coming into AK world perspective, today is a bad day to take a plunge into the hobby.
74 factory guns were virtually wiped out from the US market.
Agreed with both completely.

Quote:
My goal was always to spread AK love to the masses. Since sanctions, self imposed import limitations and all the hoopla, it is harder and harder to achieve this goal. I'm literally struggling with recommendations for new buyers since most questions are "Could you recommend GOOD AK for under $700?"...
I fkn can't. Not because i'm asshole, but because such a thing doesn't exist.
I mainly offer them to roll a dice on WASR10, which is the best bet in this scenario (in my eyes, your opinion may very), but now even WASR10 is reaching $750-800 levels...

If this trend will continue on AK market, AK in USA will fade away. I have no doubt about. We need new and fresh blood in this hobby and because of where AK market is today, there is nothing attractive for new guys in it...
Part of what made us all better enthusiasts is your diligence for R&D into rifles quality, to help people avoid crap.

Without you, MANY MORE would have succumbed to DDI's snake oil salesman US Trinity, and RAS47's, C39's, etc
Unfortunately any "New blood" is already @ the $1000+ market as well with Fabrynka Broni / WBP builds.

Very tough for any new guy to consider this price point when AR's being the worlds most developed & produced rifles
are half that, and AR308's are even less which shoot a hell of alot further and more accurately.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:20 AM   #61
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Piston upper. Problem solved. Side charging upper. Another problem solved. There isnt anything an AK can do that an AR cant other than be an AK.
So an AR-15 can shoot without a buffer tube then? News to me. Ive seen PDW buffer tubes that are shortened considerably but Ive never seen a buffer tube folding mechanism that was intended to be able to repeatedly fire the weapon whilst folded. If it doesnt have a buffer tube then I would suspect that it may not longer be an AR-15, piston or not. By that logic the Bren, FNC, scar 16, etc. are all AR-15s.

Not buying it
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:20 AM   #62
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Versatility. Most of the most modern "new" designs are AR variants. The point being that all of these options are readily available for an AR. With the Kalashnikov, you get what you get.
The AK has it's strengths, even in our modern world.

For the time being, we've reached a plateau with small arms development, an AK with an optic is just as modern as an AR with an optic.

I think what we consider modern today, is really just Fads. Key-mod grips, quad rails MLok, etc. None of these increase the capabilities of the firearm.

A Garand is heavy and obsolete by "modern standards", but if a good guy had one in an active shooter scenario, M2 Armor Piercing will penetrate modern body armor like a warm knife through butter.

Now the AR-15 certainly has the advantage in that it is modular, can be built in any machine shop in the USA from scratch, and it is now dirt cheap.

But it will never have the reliability and mean rounds before catastrophic failure that we see with combloc AKs.

Truth is, firearms haven't changed all that much since the guns fell silent in 1945. The AK is just as relevant today as the AR-15 is. Within 300 yards, both will kill you dead as a doornail.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:24 AM   #63
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Objectively today in the USA, on the civilian market now; in what ways is the AK superior to the AR?
Not alot......

AK vs AR
Simplicity of operation = AK without a doubt.
Caliber options = AR , not even a competition here.
Accessories = AR without a doubt with far more options, and adjustability, ambi controls, etc
Optics = AR without a doubt with center mounted options not mounted over a hot gas tube or side rail
Magazines = AR is now far cheaper for your majority of options by a long shot. Very few AK inexpensive NEW options.
Ammunition cost = Tie between them for steel cased ammo
Ammunition range = AR without a doubt. (You can count 5.45 if you like but that market is basically dead for new rifles guys)
Ammunitiion damage = AK penetrates better, but AR does have fragmentation for maximum flesh damage
Ammunition types = AR .....no question here.
Cost of entry for a quality rifle = AR without a doubt
Availability in the USA = AR for ammo, parts, rifles, everything bar none no comparison.

I even got some IMI Defense XM855 brass cased recently for only 27 cents a round.
I'm a fan of both , but I was as objective as possible as a fan of both.
The AK has lost it's edge of low cost rifle & low cost ammo.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:28 AM   #64
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OP, please PM me a picture of your favorite AR so I can print it out and piss on it.
Why is it everyone resorts to child like petulant behavior when we discuss AN INANIMATE OBJECT?

Its a personal preference, and as such, is open to discussion. Not this crap which seems to be the modus operandi of many on this forum. You are no better than the flamers on AR15. None the better and all the worse for it.

Grow up. This gets old real quick....ask the last guy on the AR thread who got banned for a month.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:33 AM   #65
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I like all guns. Some more than others. AKs are great guns. ARs are great guns. Not sure why some hate on one or the other. Just foolish.

There is some to be said regarding the AK market being very expensive right now compared to what it was just a few years ago and with a much more limited supply to pick from. The AR market is also much cheaper than it was just a few years ago and a lot more options to pick from. Not just from manufacturers but also calibers and size.

Both AR and AK rifles are great. I like them both. But can't deny the tables have flipped and now and quality ARs are the entry rifle and not the AK.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:33 AM   #66
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Why is it everyone resorts to child like petulant behavior when we discuss AN INANIMATE OBJECT?
Grow up. This gets old real quick....
Best to just put on IGNORE

This is a child with a keyboard who was even ripping on Mishaco (a blind gentlemen) for spelling,
if that tells you anything about his character
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:35 AM   #67
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If you want a .30, the 7.62x51 is a much better round than a 7.62x39.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:37 AM   #68
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Why is it everyone resorts to child like petulant behavior when we discuss AN INANIMATE OBJECT?

Its a personal preference, and as such, is open to discussion. Not this crap which seems to be the modus operandi of many on this forum. You are no better than the flamers on AR15. None the better and all the worse for it.

Grow up. This gets old real quick....ask the last guy on the AR thread who got banned for a month.
Agreed.

Civil discourse is good.

We all have our preferences. I like both rifles. I have both rifles. In fact, there is more than one of each in the house.

And, I'm buying more ARs right now. Buyers market.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:39 AM   #69
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If you want a .30, the 7.62x51 is a much better round than a 7.62x39.


IIRC the Malaysian 7.62x51 was only ~10-13 cents more per round, but the distance and accuracy who wouldn't pay only 10 cents more.
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Old 04-02-2018, 10:40 AM   #70
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IIRC the Malaysian 7.62x51 was only ~10 cents more per round, but the distance and accuracy who wouldn't pay only 10 cents more.
Is that Malaysian stuff the real deal? I keep seeing it.
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