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Old 07-06-2017, 02:24 PM   #1
saigamantx
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Default I was just curious (Russian related kits)

Are the rules still being honored as far as country of origin regarding Russian kits? I've heard mixed things so I wanted to ask someone in the know
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:36 PM   #2
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What "rules" are those?

"Must be out of Russia for five years before becoming importable to the USA"?

Something else? There's only a metric wheelbarrow-load of "rules' . . .
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Old 07-06-2017, 03:59 PM   #3
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As far as machine guns are concerned, EVERY form 6 application will be denied if the manufacturer is/was somewhere in Russia.
It does not seem to matter where they are currently located, Russia is Russia.
No "cooling off" period for machine guns.
If we see Russian markings [on MGs], we pass, plain and simple.
DDs, and [ball] ammo, made in Russia is fine, as long as the company is not on Obama's [corp] banned list, which is not [necessarily] a ban on "Russia."
Bolt action rifles that were found in Russia were usually parked for a while in a nice NATO country, for how long I do not remember.
These bolt action weapons are [generally] on Clinton's VRA list, but still seem to get approved for import. No Lugars, german mausers, mosins, etc]
These collectables are [additionally] banned from import because they are not "sporting type" weapons, as they contain military parts, yet are usually approved.
I was offered [Slovenia] a large [NOS] lot of Russian made krinks at $300 each, no choice but to pass, same with RP-46 with belt adapter.
In Europe, they have no such restrictions for their DEACTS, any manufacturer is OK.
I have seen several items over the years that I have no idea how they were approved, some advertised as made in Russia.
Everyday has a new learning curve.
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:28 AM   #4
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Very interesting I thought everything had a period of time I wonder how refund got their Russian kits
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:18 PM   #5
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I wish it did, there is all sorts of Russish items that we could buy tomorrow, left over from the cold war, sitting in Slovakia, Poland, and Slovenia for the past 30+ years.
Every time we have applied for a license, denied.
Last lot of PPS-43s we culled every Russian made gun out of the lot before importing, they ended up as DEACTS in Europe.
We were denied a import license for Seymore Thompson [made in the USA] mags recently.
However, there are many people out there that are much smarter than I, perhaps they figured out a legal way to bring them in.
Thanks, bob bowman
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Old 07-09-2017, 06:59 PM   #6
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cant you just put country as the one it currently is in not who made it ?
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Old 07-09-2017, 07:21 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKTALON View Post
cant you just put country as the one it currently is in not who made it ?
Say!! I have a good idea!! Let's lie to the ATF. What's the harm?
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Old 07-09-2017, 11:43 PM   #8
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Damn shame. Would love to see more Russian parts on the market.

Hoping to get a Bulgarian Milled kit or two from you soon!
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Old 07-10-2017, 09:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holderofthehorns View Post
Say!! I have a good idea!! Let's lie to the ATF. What's the harm?
Most of the Russian kits in country were brought in as Bulgarian soI would assume it was ok. Hell century brought in SKS rifles that were clearly Chinese
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Old 07-11-2017, 10:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKTALON View Post
cant you just put country as the one it currently is in not who made it ?
The ole "VEPR magazines" trick may not work anymore...
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Old 08-14-2017, 11:02 PM   #11
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Interesting. I actually haven't thought about it whenever I browse for a Russian kit.
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKTALON View Post
cant you just put country as the one it currently is in not who made it ?
Import permits applications are signed under penalty of perjury. Importers have gone to prison for lying on an application.
See The United States vs Roger Alan Cox.
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinio...ger-alan-cox/?
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:16 AM   #13
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I am curious if everyone forgets that Rguns still has plenty AKM's, hand selects AKM's on their GB account, AKS74U kits, 83 AK74 kits, 87 and 88 AK74 kits. If you look hard enough you can find just about anything you want. Russian RPK74's were imported years ago. A vendor has Russian 60's and 70's RPK's (7.62x39) for sale built out of matching kits (no clue how they got them here)

If more kits were imported today they wouldn't be any cheaper because the importer would capitalize on the current prices that are set. From what I have heard from one importer, Russian AK's demand lower prices around the globe at times because they are NOT importable into the US.

So the profit margins could be higher potentially for people like Bob, but if he gets caught up in a deal that gets denied then he stands to lose alot of money. I just recently understood all this, there are some country of origin laws in place for excise taxes that I think confuses people.

Now i am not sure on this one, but I think the reason we can't import russian guns is because of some sort of agreement/law with the russians? Now that they are sanctioned does this throw these rules out the window?
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:53 AM   #14
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TECHNO, I think you are referring to the 1996 "Voluntary Restraint Agreement" that the US agreed to with the Russians:

http://tcc.export.gov/Trade_Agreemen...exp_005371.asp

Russia Agreement On Firearms And Ammunition

AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION ON EXPORTS OF FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION FROM THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

The Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Russian Federation, hereinafter referred to as the "Parties,"

In the context of removing a number of existing restrictions on the importation into the United States of firearms and ammunition from the Russian Federation;

Recognizing the foreign policy interest of the Parties in expanding trade in firearms and ammunition between the, United States and the Russian Federation in a manner compatible with domestic security;

Recognizing the intention of the United States of America that United States policy with respect to access to the United States market for firearms and ammunition be applied in a nondiscriminatory manner to all of its trading partners;

Wishing to promote trade and cooperation on an equal and mutually beneficial basis between the United States and the Russian Federation and to expand economic opportunities in the two countries;

Have agreed as follows:

Article 1: Definitions.

The following definitions apply to this Agreement:

(a) "Ammunition" means any ammunition, cartridge case, primer, bullet, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(b) "Firearm" means any nonautomatic, semiautomatic, or automatic firearm, to caliber .50 (12.7 mm) inclusive other than a shotgun, or any component or part for such firearm.

(c) "New model ammunition" means a type of ammunition the manufacture of which began after February 9, 1996,

(d) "New model firearm" means a type of firearm the manufacture of which began after February 9, 1996.

Article 2: Firearms and Ammunition Export Prohibitions.

The Government of the Russian Federation shall not allow the exportation from the Russian Federation, destined to the United States, of the following firearms and ammunition:

(a) any firearm, including any new model firearm, except a firearm described in Annex A to this Agreement;

(b) ammunition described in Annex B to this Agreement; and

(c) new model ammunition.

Article 3: Consultations.

(a) Each Party shall provide to the other Party, on request, information necessary for the implementation and enforcement of this Agreement. A Party shall keep confidential all information received from the other Party that is designated by the providing Party as confidential and shall not provide it to any other government or any private person without the providing Party's written consent.

(b) The Parties agree to consult promptly, not later than 30 days after receipt of a request from either Party, regarding any matter concerning this Agreement.

(c) At any time, either Party may propose that a firearm be added to or deleted from Annex A or that ammunition be added to or deleted from Annex B. The Parties shall consult promptly regarding such a proposal and may amend either Annex by written agreement of the Parties.

(d) Where a question arises as to whether a particular firearm or ammunition is subject to the export prohibition in Article 2, the Parties shall consult promptly. The firearm or ammunition shall be subject to the export prohibition pending resolution of the matter.

Article 4: Construction.

Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to affect the applicability to firearms, ammunition, or other products of the laws and regulations of the United States or the Russian Federation imposing restrictions or requirements on importation.

Article 5: Actions to Ensure the Effectiveness of this Agreement.

Either Party may take any action, as provided in its laws and regulations, necessary to ensure the effectiveness of this Agreement.

Article 6: Emergency Actions.

If the Government of the United States determines that the actual or prospective importation of any firearm described in Annex A or ammunition other than that described in Annex B is causing or threatens to cause damage to the domestic security of the United States, the Government of the United States reserves the right to take any measure it deems appropriate consistent with the Agreement on Trade Relations, signed between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the United States of America at Washington on June 1, 1990, as amended, brought into force between the United States of America and the Russian Federation pursuant to an exchange of notes on June 17, 1992. The Government of the United States shall consult with the Government of the Russian Federation prior to taking any such measure. If prior and prompt consultations are not possible because of an emergency situation, the Government of the United States shall consult with the Government of the Russian Federation as soon as possible after taking the measure.

Article 7: Amendments.

This Agreement may be amended by written agreement of the Parties.

Article 8: No Effect on Articles in U.S. Customs Territory.

This Agreement shall not affect the fulfillment of contracts with respect to firearms or ammunition entered or withdrawn from warehouse for consumption in the United States on or before February 9, 1996.

Article 9: Annexes; Entry into Force; Termination.

(a) The Annexes to this Agreement are an integral part of this Agreement.

(b) This Agreement shall enter into force upon the date of its signature by both

(c) Either Party may terminate this Agreement by providing written notification to the other Party at least twelve months prior to the date of termination.

Done at Washington on April 3, 1996, in duplicate, in the English and Russian languages, both texts being equally authentic.

/S/ /S/

For the Government of the For the Government of the

United States of America Russian Federation

ANNEX A

Firearms Permitted to Be Imported into the United States from the Russian Federation

Pistols/Revolvers

1. German Model P08 Pistol

2. IZH 34M, .22 caliber Target Pistol

3. IZH 3 5M, .22 caliber Target Pistol

4. Mauser Model 1896 Pistol

5. MC-57-1 Pistol

6. MC-1-5 Pistol

7. Polish Vis Model 35 Pistol

8. Soviet Nagant Revolver

9. TOZ 35,.22 caliber Target Pistol

Rifles

1. BARS-4 Bolt Action Carbine

2. Biathlon Target Rifle, .22LR caliber

3. British Enfield Rifle

4. CM2,.22 caliber Target Rifle (also known as SM2,.22 caliber)

5. German Model 98K Rifle

6. German Model G41 Rifle

7. German Model G43 Rifle

8. IZH-94

9. LOS-7 Bolt Action Rifle

10. MC-7-07

11. MC-18-3

12. MC-19-07

13. MC-105-01

14. MC-112-02

15. MC-113-02

16. MC-115-1

17. MC-125/127

18. MC-126

19. MC-128

20. Saiga Rifle

21. Soviet Model 38 Carbine

22. Soviet Model 44 Carbine

23. Soviet Model 91/30 Rifle

24. TOZ 18,.22 caliber Bolt Action Rifle

25. TOZ 55

26. TOZ 78

27. Ural Target Rifle, .22LR caliber

28. VEPR Rifle

29. Winchester Model 1895, Russian Model Rifle

ANNEX B

Ammunition Prohibited from Being Imported

into the United States from the Russian Federation

1. 7.62X25mm caliber (also known as 7.63X25 mm caliber or.30 Mauser)


IN 2004 ANNEX "A" was updated....

The Addition of Firearms to Annex A
A decision was agreed upon to amend Annex A between Russian and the United States. In addition, on March 4, 2004, a decision was agreed upon to amend the list by adding 74 types of firearms to the list. Please see the attached list of additional firearms. Please note, that even though these 74 firearms have been added to Annex A, ATF will still need to determine the importability of some of these firearms. Applications to import any of the 74 firearms might only be approved conditionally. Some of the firearms will need to be examined and classified by the Firearms Technology Branch to determine their importability.

Here is the link to that list:
https://www.atf.gov/file/61101/download

One other point, and its about the broad authority the President has over imports of arms. This paper was written in 1996. It USED to be available on the Justice department web site:

https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/olc/arms02.htm

I have pasted in the first part of the document, I would suggest reading the entire paper.

February 9, 1996

MEMORANDUM OPINION FOR THE SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT
AND LEGAL ADVISOR TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL

This letter addresses and explains the basis for the oral advice that we provided in early April 1995 regarding the President's authority under the Arms Export Control Act, 22 U.S.C. 2751-2799aa-2, ("AECA") to restrict the import of certain munitions from the Russian Federation in furtherance of United States foreign policy. The question arises in connection with the Administration's plan, as part of a general program of eliminating Cold War restrictions on trade and economic cooperation with Russia, to take steps to remove Russia from the International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR") list, which provides that it is the policy of the United States to deny licenses for the import of defense articles originating in certain countries, including Russia. 27 C.F.R. 47.52 (1995). Russia's presence on the ITAR list means American businesses are not granted licenses necessary to import Russian munitions. Once Russia is off the ITAR list, there would be no general prohibition on gun imports from Russia. We understand that the issue concerns the negotiation of voluntary export restraints with Russia to ensure that, once Russia is removed from the ITAR list, munitions imports from Russia would not jeopardize public safety. (1) The question has been raised whether the President possesses authority under the AECA to limit the import of munitions from Russia. We have concluded that restricting the import of Russian munitions to certain classes of firearms and ammunition is a legitimate use of the President's authority under the AECA to restrict the import of munitions in furtherance of United States foreign policy................

...................... We understand that one part of the Administration's trade negotiation with Russia involves the possible importation into the United States from Russia of arms for sporting and hunting purposes. The Administration intends to continue to prevent imports of certain classes of weapons that are deemed to pose an unacceptable risk to public safety. In our view, the AECA would authorize imposition of controls on such imports.

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Old 08-30-2017, 11:05 AM   #15
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^

In short, this is the Clinton era VRA, which keeps most of what we are interested in, out of most hands.


If it's on the list, it is importable.



This is completely independent of any sanctions.


The good stuff that has previously come from established vendors falls under origin exceptions.


This is the deadest of dead horses.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:49 AM   #16
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The origin of the material doesn't change the longer it has been sitting from what I was told. The guys who have tried to pull the "it's been sitting for 20-50 years here and well documented" crap have been sternly warned not to try it again.

This is what an importer told me recently, that origin rule has to do with excise taxes I thought.

Maybe they lied and said the stuff was Bulgarian?
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:58 PM   #17
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If you go online and read their application form, it's there toward the end.
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Old 08-30-2017, 04:22 PM   #18
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Maybe what they are doing is filling out the application per the instructions on the bottom and putting country of origin as Bulgaria etc. I think Bob doesn't want the trouble, talking to Richard at Apex the other importers don't want the trouble either.

From what I was told if Russia is put as the origin it is denied as far as military gun parts are concerned. It supposedly turns the e-form red? Your still allowed to submit it but your going to get denied no matter how well documented the guns are.

Who knows. I'm not an importer so all my info is second hand.
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Old 08-31-2017, 02:55 AM   #19
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^

In short, this is the Clinton era VRA, which keeps most of what we are interested in, out of most hands.

If it's on the list, it is importable.

This is completely independent of any sanctions.

The good stuff that has previously come from established vendors falls under origin exceptions.

This is the deadest of dead horses.
When relations with Russia return to normal the sanctions will be lifted.
However, the VRA will remain.
As you note, only Russian guns listed on the VRA and "ANNEX A" are importable.
The actual country where they are currently stored doesn't matter.
Challenging the VRA thru legal means will require a very carefully crafted argument from some very good attorneys.
Timing and politics will also be important.
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Old 08-31-2017, 04:43 AM   #20
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The older I get, the more I pee and wake up at night.

It all makes more sense after reading the document.
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Old 08-31-2017, 04:57 PM   #21
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Maybe what they are doing is filling out the application per the instructions on the bottom and putting country of origin as Bulgaria etc

Thats exactly what they do, lots of stuff in country from certain dealers that wouldn't be importable if they were listed accurately on the form 6.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:08 AM   #22
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Thats exactly what they do, lots of stuff in country from certain dealers that wouldn't be importable if they were listed accurately on the form 6.
A false entry on an ATF application, return, or record is perjury, these violations are punishable as felonies and put the individual violator and the business at risk.
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:13 AM   #23
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A false entry on an ATF application, return, or record is perjury, these violations are punishable as felonies and put the individual violator and the business at risk.
true.
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