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Old 01-13-2019, 04:48 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by овчарка View Post
Yeah, not just weight, but I once I realized the VEPR is magwell vs rock n lock it really turned me off to it.
So now we have a better idea on what your looking for in a AK type pattern shotgun. So the vepr 12 is not for you then, considering you want a rock n lock type
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Old 01-13-2019, 05:07 PM   #37
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I like my Vepr-12 for the simple reason that it has a self-regulating gas system that actually works. I can load mixed magazines with everything from low-brass birdshot to mil-spec 00-Buck and will crank them all out without a hiccup. As far as OEM polymer magazines go, the Vepr seem to be the sturdiest and most well made as well (for what that's worth).
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Old 01-17-2019, 02:05 AM   #38
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Yeah, not just weight, but I once I realized the VEPR is magwell vs rock n lock it really turned me off to it.
Curious as to why you wouldnt prefer the magwell? From my experience its much easier to load, and far more robust, I dont really see any disadvantage to it at all.
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Old 01-17-2019, 03:05 AM   #39
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Curious as to why you wouldnt prefer the magwell? From my experience its much easier to load, and far more robust, I dont really see any disadvantage to it at all.
1. Mag availability
2. Simpler manual of arms/consistent manual of arms with other AKs
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Old 01-17-2019, 05:15 AM   #40
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i checked the weight on my sons Lynx with it empty and no mag.

8 pounds and 4 ounces, sounds pretty close to the Saiga-12.
I would agree with that. Though it FEELS much lighter than then S12 I had.
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Old 01-17-2019, 10:47 AM   #41
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russian. look on gunbroker armslist or use riverofguns.com to search for one... you can find one for about the price of the knock-offs, yet have the good russian steel.


there is another out of china called "tak-47" that is a direct 109 clone. some australia/new zealand history, they built it, wanted it etc for shooting kangaroos, hahah
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Old 01-19-2019, 06:55 PM   #42
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Nothing wrong w/either a gun or a woman having a little extra weight........

Both help w/absorbing recoil.
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by овчарка View Post
What's the best AK shotgun to pick up in the current market?

We have;

Lynx
VEPRs still in stock
KUSA KS-12

And of course the occasional Saiga that can be found online or locally.

What do y'all recommend?
Vepr
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:28 AM   #44
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Fixed poly stock or folding tubular on the VEPR?
Fixed. It allows you many options..factory fixed stock, wood, telescoping m4, folder, folding telescoping m4 etc.
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Old 01-20-2019, 11:49 AM   #45
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I will also add that we have tested the Kalashnikov USA KS 12 shotgun and have found it to be solid and reliable . To be honest we were not expecting much when they arrived but were surprised to see the build quality and machining on the parts was above our expectations. If anybody is interested in checking one of these out and posting a review we would be glad to provide you with a equitable discount and the ability to return the gun if you were not happy.
^ solid option to a S12. I have heard from reputable guys in the S12/V12 community that these are exact clones of the S12 (minus furniture).
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Old 01-22-2019, 01:52 PM   #46
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Some of the prices I've seen..............

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796170434

Another one...............

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/790351641


Just for comparison (buy now price $759.00),,,,,,,,,,,...............


https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796634632


I believe the two Vepr 12's on Gunbroker are at rockbottom prices, so my suggestion would be to get the established and original Vepr 12 where you know what's right and what's wrong w/it; which is that it's a tank, and yeah, straight out of the box, it can be "rough around the edges", but w/issues you can deal w/and fix.

At the gunbroker prices, you get the gun, "you no like"......................you sell and get your money back.



The irony of all this is I bought my guns in a hurry in order to beat CA outlawing the purchase of these guns, and I ended up paying a grand each for my 2 guns. That is, was, and will always be too much for what the Vepr 12 is.

I don't care what anybody says, when you pay $1000.00 for a gun, you should get a polished and refined weapon that works great out of the box, and there are outfits that will provide you that, at that price.

That ain't the Vepr, ok, fine, so at $769.00, these guns are at the right/correct price, where you can put on a decent stock, sand/polish the internals, swap out the trigger et al, and whatever else you want to do to make the gun work for you and still stay south of a grand.

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Old 01-22-2019, 06:29 PM   #47
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Never had a single issue with my V12. What issues are people having?
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Old 01-22-2019, 10:02 PM   #48
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Never had a single issue with my V12. What issues are people having?
Neither have I............and that's w/either gun. That was w/after cycling each gun by hand by at least 1000 times before actually firing either gun, and polishing the rails/bolt/bolt carrier to address the reported issue by others that their guns would only cycle the hotter ammo (right out of the box)...............notwithstanding the idea that this was what the gun was designed to do.

That is based on taking the word of experts who know the gun better than I do, and I accepted that based on that my two guns out of the box were in fact different.

Some guns never have a problem w/different types of ammo from right out of the box despite having nothing done to them, evidently some do. I had the feeling that if I hadn't hand cycled/polished the internals of both guns, that my 1st Vepr 12 would cycle most ammo and my 2nd one wouldn't.

Getting 2 guns actually benefitted me in terms of being able to see firsthand just how the gun could be different, so I worked one more to get it's "smoothness" in the same ballpark as the other gun. Vepr 1 was very smooth out of the box where you could cycle the gun by hand easily BEFORE I did any hand cycling or polishing. Vepr 2 wasn't, and its bolt dragged when you hand cycled it in comparison the the other gun.



I worked both guns anyway, w/more attention to hand cycling/polishing my "draggy"/sluggish Vepr 2 until it was just about as smooth as Vepr 1.

After spending so much time polishing/hand cycling both guns, I can tell you that besides the bolt action dragging in my Vepr 2 in comparison to the other gun, that I could feel through my hands from cycling both guns that the spring was different in Vepr 2.



I got to know both guns "through my hands", and if you blindfolded me, and handed me either one of my guns, I could rack the gun, and tell you which one I was holding. They're close, but still different.



That "drooping" stock that comes w/the gun is lousy, and I've seen videos of folks who left the stock on, where it would wobble; selling a gun w/a stock that is off axis to the line of the barrel is an insult to good money. It's essentially the idea of telling you "kiss my ass", because then you end up spending the money for a better stock, which they could've put on the gun from the getgo.

The Vepr 12 is a good gun for $769.00 if you KNOW going in that if you're unsatisfied w/the stock that it's that price PLUS the stock. Luck will decide whether you get a gun that shoots everything right out of the box, or a gun that coughs on the hottest ammo. If that happens, you can sand/polish/change out springs, and still come out w/a good gun after spending some more money/time to get the gun where you want it.

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Old 01-24-2019, 02:17 PM   #49
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I just picked up a vepr12, factory folder in mint condition for 699.00. Was trying to trade into one but gave up when I found this one. Can't wait to shoot it.
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Old 01-24-2019, 10:59 PM   #50
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nice snag Porter. Enjoy the firepower at your disposal.
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Old 01-25-2019, 02:05 PM   #51
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nice snag Porter. Enjoy the firepower at your disposal.
I got it in your neck of the woods mike off NFA. I think I am getting close to all my wants firearms wise, or atleast that's what I keep saying. Hope all is well my friend.
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Old 03-07-2019, 05:21 AM   #52
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Just picked up a brand new vepr 12 factory folder on GB. $905.00 Picked up 3 CSSPECS steel 10 round mags for it and a Molot muzzle brake. All good to go! Cant wait till it gets to ffl. Might have to pick up a 25 round drum just for smiles.
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Old 03-07-2019, 05:13 PM   #53
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I just picked up a vepr12, factory folder in mint condition for 699.00. Was trying to trade into one but gave up when I found this one. Can't wait to shoot it.
So, we need a box of clays for the PNW meet now!
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Old 03-07-2019, 05:52 PM   #54
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The VEPR 12 is the king of the hill folloed by the KUSA KS 12T
Yep
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:27 PM   #55
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The Vepr is everything the S12 wanted to be.
Actually the Vepr is a cheap and low quality copy of the 030 model Saiga. The Saiga version has a steel top rail and the Vepr has a twisted and canted plastic rail. The Saiga has a steel reinforced magwell and the Vepr is all plastic. The Saiga has a textured matte finish on its furniture and the Vepr as slick shiny furniture. The Saiga has a 5rd mag that was molded from its own mold and the Vepr uses a cut down mag to make itís 5rd mags which leaves the floor plate area much weaker. Izhmash was just starting to import the Saiga IZ-433 when the sanctions hit. It is the sporterized version of the 030 model. If you get a chance to get one you will see just how cheap the Vepr was made...
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:32 PM   #56
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I like my Vepr-12 for the simple reason that it has a self-regulating gas system that actually works. I can load mixed magazines with everything from low-brass birdshot to mil-spec 00-Buck and will crank them all out without a hiccup. As far as OEM polymer magazines go, the Vepr seem to be the sturdiest and most well made as well (for what that's worth).
There is really nothing self regulating about the Veprís gas system. It is hammering the crap out of the gun when using high brass ammo. If you want to see a sturdier mag look at the 5rd mags made for the magwell version of the Saiga. Izhmash actually dedicated a mold for it and the Vepr uses a cut down magazine that leaves the floorplate area much weaker.
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:40 PM   #57
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Actually the Vepr is a cheap and low quality copy of the 030 model Saiga. The Saiga version has a steel top rail and the Vepr has a twisted and canted plastic rail. The Saiga has a steel reinforced magwell and the Vepr is all plastic. The Saiga has a textured matte finish on its furniture and the Vepr as slick shiny furniture. The Saiga has a 5rd mag that was molded from its own mold and the Vepr uses a cut down mag to make itís 5rd mags which leaves the floor plate area much weaker. Izhmash was just starting to import the Saiga IZ-433 when the sanctions hit. It is the sporterized version of the 030 model. If you get a chance to get one you will see just how cheap the Vepr was made...
Uhh what? My Vepr has the rail machined into the dust cover. No plastic there. The plastic magwell is nice since it doesn't weigh a ton. And shiny vs matte is merely the difference in the finish on the mold. EDM will leave a more matte finish vs a ground or polished mold.

My Vepr 5rnd is not just a cut down mag. I've never used it though. I use CSSpecs mags only.

All in all my Vepr is light-years better than any saiga I've handled in fit and finish. The machining/materials are so much nicer. Even the paint doesn't flake off like my Saigas.

Not sure what Vepr you are looking at but it sounds like century made it and wrote Vepr on it in crayon.
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:53 PM   #58
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Uhh what? My Vepr has the rail machined into the dust cover. No plastic there. The plastic magwell is nice since it doesn't weigh a ton. And shiny vs matte is merely the difference in the finish on the mold. EDM will leave a more matte finish vs a ground or polished mold.

My Vepr 5rnd is not just a cut down mag. I've never used it though. I use CSSpecs mags only.

All in all my Vepr is light-years better than any saiga I've handled in fit and finish. The machining/materials are so much nicer. Even the paint doesn't flake off like my Saigas.

Not sure what Vepr you are looking at but it sounds like century made it and wrote Vepr on it in crayon.
I have seen a lot think their rail is metal on their Vepr only to find out it was in fact plastic. I have never heard of a Vepr having a metal rail but maybe they did change it at some point, doubt it though because it should have never been plastic to begin with... There is no noticeable weight change with the steel cage over molded in the Saiga magwell. The OEM 5rd Vepr mags are most definitely cut down mags with a slot machined in for the floor plate... The finish has nothing at all to do with EDM or polishing. The difference is Izhmash took the time and expense to acid etch a nice textured matte finish and Molot stopped at polishing...

I have both guns and can post pics showing the difference in quality if you would like...

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Old 03-20-2019, 05:12 PM   #59
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Why did I start reading this? Now I've got another thing to check, so now I'm going check how my back rail is lined up.

Whatever the magwell is made of, the magwell on my 2 guns seem beefy and sturdy to me, I'll let you know if it stays that in 10 yrs.

Anybody got both guns, and owned them for awhile, to compare?




BTW: Just saw what you posted, and if it isn't putting you out, I for one would love to see those pictures for my own education. I live and learn.

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Old 03-20-2019, 05:24 PM   #60
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Why did I start reading this? Now I've got another thing to check, so now I'm going check how my back rail is lined up.

Whatever the magwell is made of, the magwell on my 2 guns seem beefy and sturdy to me, I'll let you know if it stays that in 10 yrs.

Anybody got both guns, and owned them for awhile, to compare?
Originally the Saiga 030 didn’t have the metal cage over molded to reinforce the magwell. Them adding it wasn’t for the fun of it. The no doubt started seeing Busted magwells from drop tests. The average shooter won’t have to worry about it. Just like the average shooter won’t have to worry about a plastic and twisted plastic rail on the Vepr. Here is a link to a replacement if you must have a metal one though. Not cheap... Notice they point out the plastic ones are usually bowed and twisted as well... https://www.carolinashooterssupply.c...inged-rail.htm

Bottom line is Molot in general, not every product they have, has been a cheaper made knock off of an Izhmash product for around 100 years now. The Vepr compared to the Saiga is no different. Before Izhmash could start importing their IZ-433 in numbers or a non-sporterized version more like the 030 the sanctions hit. That is the ONLY reason everyone thinks the Vepr is better. It is most definitely not... It is a shame that Izhmash let quality slip on their IZ-109 model when popularity increased. It put a stain on the Saiga for sure.

I do like the Molot grip better. It was a knock off of the Izhmash grip but Molot added finger grooves. They skipped the acid etch texture though which makes it way slicker to grip. Before the Vepr was imported we made a clone of the Molot grip but we did acid etch the grip and didn’t skip that step to save a few dollars like Molot did...

Give me a bit and I will take some comparison pictures.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:35 PM   #61
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LOL, reading these damn things always end up costing me money.................

BEFORE I order this.................is the combination of the dust cover already on the gun together w/this replacement rail going to stay lined up once the new rail is on the gun.

Please say yes so I can save some money!!
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:02 PM   #62
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VEPR 12
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:09 PM   #63
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LOL, reading these damn things always end up costing me money.................

BEFORE I order this.................is the combination of the dust cover already on the gun together w/this replacement rail going to stay lined up once the new rail is on the gun.

Please say yes so I can save some money!!
Lol! Not trying to cost you money. Just trying to put out the facts. I don’t have any experience with those after market parts and can’t answer that, sorry. Honestly I don’t know if it merits a replacement either. Not for a shotgun at least. I took some pictures of the stuff I was talking about and will try to post them.

Well, the pics are too big to load or something. Too bad because they show exactly what I said about everything.

I’m not trying to knock the Vepr-12. It’s a really nice shotgun. But it is definitely a cheaper copy of an Izhmash model. Something else I like about the Vepr over the Saiga Version is the Vepr has an RPK style rear sight that lets you adjust windage. I have no doubt had the Saiga version had a chance to come in that they would have added the RPK style rear sight.

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Old 03-20-2019, 06:21 PM   #64
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What the hell...................I'll probably do it anyway because I have sunk a wad into my red dots, and it doesn't make sense for me to spend that kind of money on those optics which are supposed to improve accuracy, but leave them on a cockeyed rail.


Seems to me that would defeat the purpose of the optics. I got 2 Vepr 12's so 2 replacement rails here I come.



My eyesight isn't what it used to be, which is why I got the red dots on my shotguns..................They're not just toys 4 me, I do need them...................70 yr. old eyeballs, and lucky I can still see what I see.





PS: If you're taking pics w/your smartphone, they'll be something like 20x30 inches, or thereabouts, look on your screen before you "share 'em" by email or message or whatever, and you'll see the option to "resize" to 10%.

Click on that which should knock down the size of the pics to load here and then click on the "share" option to send 'em out.

Last edited by AllTen; 03-20-2019 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:56 PM   #65
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What the hell...................I'll probably do it anyway because I have sunk a wad into my red dots, and it doesn't make sense for me to spend that kind of money on those optics which are supposed to improve accuracy, but leave them on a cockeyed rail.


Seems to me that would defeat the purpose of the optics. I got 2 Vepr 12's so 2 replacement rails here I come.



My eyesight isn't what it used to be, which is why I got the red dots on my shotguns..................They're not just toys 4 me, I do need them...................70 yr. old eyeballs, and lucky I can still see what I see.





PS: If you're taking pics w/your smartphone, they'll be something like 20x30 inches, or thereabouts, look on your screen before you "share 'em" by email or message or whatever, and you'll see the option to "resize" to 10%.

Click on that which should knock down the size of the pics to load here and then click on the "share" option to send 'em out.
Thanks for the tip. I tried it that way and made them as small as it would allow. They were still too big though. Also they were starting to get pretty fuzzy. If you want to inbox me your email I will send them to you that way.
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Old 03-20-2019, 07:09 PM   #66
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I'll send you a pm.

While I wait for the pics, I'll say some of these smartphones can take some large files which will be displayed when you see 'em on your monitor at 72 pixels per inch. The 10% resize should've knocked them down to a decent size.

As to the fuzzies, could be any number of things. Trouble with these phones is that when you shoot a close up, the software of these phones try to do too much interpretation of what you want in focus, and sometimes, before you take the shot, you may have to move the phone around slowly until the phone decides to focus on the same spot you want in focus.


Same breath control counts for firing a shutter to take a pic, as w/firing a gun (even w/image stabilization U can still get fuzzies). When you breathe, your chest/arms move back and forth, which can mess up the focus, but it could also be other things causing the fuzzies.



If you are having problems, we can hold off on the pics until you get your phone sorted out. You've been very helpful on the cockeyed rail issue, thanks.

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Old 03-20-2019, 08:38 PM   #67
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I'll send you a pm.

While I wait for the pics, I'll say some of these smartphones can take some large files which will be displayed when you see 'em on your monitor at 72 pixels per inch. The 10% resize should've knocked them down to a decent size.

As to the fuzzies, could be any number of things. Trouble with these phones is that when you shoot a close up, the software of these phones try to do too much interpretation of what you want in focus, and sometimes, before you take the shot, you may have to move the phone around slowly until the phone decides to focus on the same spot you want in focus.


Same breath control counts for firing a shutter to take a pic, as w/firing a gun (even w/image stabilization U can still get fuzzies). When you breathe, your chest/arms move back and forth, which can mess up the focus, but it could also be other things causing the fuzzies.



If you are having problems, we can hold off on the pics until you get your phone sorted out. You've been very helpful on the cockeyed rail issue, thanks.
I appreciate the tips. I tried to scale them down to the lowest my phone would let me but they were still slightly too small. The pictures look good until I scaled them down. Iíll have to research it more to see where Iím going wrong. I do keep my phone on the largest pic setting. Maybe I just need to step that down when taking pics to post to message boards. Iíll email over the pics shortly.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:32 AM   #68
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These are informative pics.......................I'm convinced about the the OEM rails being cockeyed and twisted, so my 2 OEM rails are gone, they just don't know it yet.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:04 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by AllTen View Post
These are informative pics.......................I'm convinced about the the OEM rails being cockeyed and twisted, so my 2 OEM rails are gone, they just don't know it yet.
Lol! Sorry about that...
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